A SAAF Ref 2612/Mark 11

Hi Antonio,
you're right, very interesting milwatches from the SAAF.
The world is becoming closer nowadays in times of the web, so we have met us too :-).
He announced his latest website in the MWR, the former broad arrow forum, 4 days ago. You know my other watch interest besides IWC ;-).

I share your speculation, Michael. When bootlenecks exist, military authorities have converted civilian items in military use due to an existing embargo or a shortage induced through other reasons.

Regards
Hajo

Hi Michael,
I've written to the SA collector to encourage, actually urge, him to search the SAAF archives for documentary evidence that IWC Ref 2612s were purchased and used by the SAAF as navigation watches, and to send his SAAF Ref 2612/Mark 11 to Schaffhausen, along with the documentation, to legitimize this Mark 11.
He is, however, an executive of a multinational company and busy with his revenue generating activities. Collecting watches of the SA military is but an hobby. So, even if he succeeds in gaining access to the SAAF archives, he will do that in his spare time, and at his own pace.

Regarding the difference in the engravings between the SAAF Mark 11 from 1961 and his Ref 2612/Mark 11 from 1969, my comment is that the difference may mean something, or nothing. There is a 8 year gap between the two watches, and the task of engraving the case backs to affirm SAAF ownership, may have fallen into a different person/department, with a completely different engraving criteria. Also, the lack of any engravings in the Ref 2612 gave them more space to engrave the AFxxxx in a larger font.
BTW, there is also a marked difference in the case back engravings between the RAF Mark 11s from 1948 and 1952 (xxx/52).

AF9538 is not the only one known. It is one of two, although it is the only complete one extant, as far as we know. It is possible to see an image of the surviving twisted case back of the other one AF9229, in my posting earlier in this thread.
I realize that two is not a big number, but I venture to say that it may be big enough, if we consider the size of the SAAF, the total number of Mark 11s it purchased (guesstimation circa 200), and the fact that most were destroyed when they were decommissioned.

The research continues, to quote the celler.

I´ve been following the discussion with interest, congratulations to all for the amount of imput, especially to Tony.
Has anyone ever seen a certificate for an SAAF Mk 11 from Schaffhausen other than the one seen and mentioned here, signed by Marcel Engeler and Monika Kottmann on the 30 Nov 2011?
Who are they, what knowledge do they have of these timepieces, where did they get their wisdom from?

Best Regards

Jimmy

Hi Jimmy. Thanks.
Good to see you here. I had hoped you'd jump in earlier, but you seemed to be engaged at the "other place."

I do not think the people who sign the CoGs for the military Mark 11s (without case number) are the "experts" who determine the authenticity of each military Mark 11. I believe they rely on in-house experts.
I know they have made mistakes in the past. I've heard, but not seen, that a CoG was once issued to a Mark 11 with the infamous "white dial".

The fact is that IWC has preciously little records about the Mark 11, and about the organizations that used it.

In view of the "white dial" debacle, and outright forgeries, people at IWC and in the collector's community, have become understandably skeptic of new revelations re the Mark 11, even refusing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

It will be a shame if the SAAF Ref 2612/Mark 11 is not recognized as legitimate because we can't find a piece of paper, that the SAAF was going to great lengths to hide, to prove its authenticity.
Let us not forget that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Have tried to stay away from posting as I didn't want to disrupt the conversations. Am now able to follow the discussions which is a good thing.
To answer the question, the dial of the watch mentioned in the CoG does not have an encircled T. Here are the pics:

However, did some investigations and found 2 other watches that might be of interest to those here. One is a military SAAF with encircled T. One might replace the dial if watch is in rough, used condition. The overall condition of this watch seems to be excellent so one may ask why if the dial is not original to the watch. The watch was sold quite a while ago, the only info provided by the seller:
SAAF
6B/346
AF8902
328/61
movement serial number 1483078 dates to 1959. Here are the pics:

The second watch found was a mark 11 with some sort of military marking on the back but no marking on the dial or the movement. The inscription on the caseback was said to be A-9203. Was wondering if it could have been a ref 2612 with part of the F rubbed off. Again, watch was sold so I don't know if there is a case number. Anyhow, pics here:

This is a repost from my other thread where I was requested to ask my contact who was an instrument technician/watch repairer for the SAAF about the use of this civilian version. I now have a reply from my ex SAAF contact regarding the use of civilian IWC's, he comments as follows:

I can,t say with any certainty whether civilian watches were ever used by the SAAF but I can't recall ever seeing one with just an SA number like the Lems

Dave

Hi Nimrod,
Thanks for the effort. The SAAF Mark 11 with the dial with the "broad arrow" and the "encircled T" is interesting, but there is no way to know if the dial is a SAAF original dial.
The last one could be a SAAF Ref 2612/Mark 11 indeed. The number 9203 is consistent with the other known numbers for the SAAF Ref 2612/Mark 11 (9229 and 9558) but the image is too small to determine if the F, of AF, was ever there. Can you find a better image?
I speculate that the 9203 and the 9229 were part of one acquisition of ?30? watches and the 9538 of a second one, later.
Yes, I know, I am getting ahead of myself here. :)

Interesting development on the posting with subject Another SAAF Beauty, confirming AF XXXX is a legitimate SAAF engraving.

www.iwc.com/forum/en/discussion/56360/?page=2#post_401914

I am afraid I cannot be of more help here. That is the only pic provided by the seller on the inscription. If watch had not been sold, could ask the seller for detailed photos. Unfortunately the watch is no longer available. If it surfaces again, will let you know.

Thanks Dave and Nimrod for your invaluable contributions to this thread and to the other thread on this matter Another SAAF Beauty.
I believe it is now possible to posit, at a minimum, that it is more likely than not that the SAAF acquired and used an unknown number of IWC Ref 2612s/Mark 11s (with case number) for military use, on or around 1969.
The search continues while awaiting the South African collector gain access to the SAAF archives and find documentary evidence, to nail this issue down.

All of my Lemania SAAF watches only have the AFxxxx reference on the case back and it is only my IWC MkX1 that also has the other engravings - so I think it would be fair to say that AFxxxx would be the normal type of engraving. My lemania cal 5012 has AF12109 only engraved on the back.

Dave

I posit that the SAAF watches, except the IWC Mark 11 from 1961, only had the AFXXXX engravings in the case back. The only reason why the first IWC Mark 11s had the 6B/346 and XXX/61 was because the watches came with that engraving from Schaffhausen. The SAAF and AFXXXX were added in the RSA.
The Ref 2612/Mark 11s and the Lemanias were most likely purchased in the "grey market" in the late 1960s, ostensibly for civilian use, and probably via a false flag operation. The AFXXXX engravings were made in the RSA for inventory purposes and to affirm ownership.
I think we can now safely say that the theory that contended that the AFXXXX engravings in the Ref 2612s had been made by an unscrupulous dealer to hype their price appear to have been proven wrong.

I dislike to spoil the party, but I don't see anything like a proof.

We know for a long time, that in some point of time in the mid to late sixties the SAAF switched over to a marking system, that (at least as far as watches were concerned) did not include the Store Ref. No.

But we don't know, whether in that period of time the SAAF bought any Mk. 11. What we know for sure is, they bought some in the early fifties and some in the early sixties, but these are marked 6B/346 accompanied by an ID-No of the old scheme. Most of them later on got in addition an AF ID No.

You assume the SAAF bought a bunch of about 30 watches after that change in their marking system. If your assumption is right, why does -when retrieving one of the watches in question- these watches don't turn out to be part of such a bunch according to the records of IWC, but was one sold to Asia, one to Germany and so on. The South Africans were able to source the spares to keep their planes airworthy, expensive and bulky spares. These channels would allow to buy in comparison cheap and tiny wristwatches on the same way in a bunch, instead of travelling around all over the world to pick one watch here, a second watch there and a third watch there.

What we know is, that we have watches consistent (i) with the old marking scheme and (ii) the later SAAF marking scheme. But this fact doesn't prove anything. We know enough fakes bearing markings consistent to RAF markings. Are they no longer fakes, because the later on applied markings are consistent with the original RAF markings?

There are still lots of assumptions around, but we lack anything like a proof.

Th. Koenig

I can't answer any of these questions, but the query about why these watches weren't bought in larger lots might relate the political situation back then.

James Dowling, a well-known watch expert, author and friend recently wrote me. Here's what he said:

"I have been following this thread on the forum with some interest, and here are my thoughts on the matter:

"The problem with these watches is nothing to do with IWC's records but rather with the political situation in the 1960s to 1980s.

"During the Apartheid era, South Africa was subject to same sort of sanctions as are currently applied to North Korea & Iran. So the South Africans developed a network of sources to procure essential items for their military, shell companies in third party countries, friendly regimes and downright subterfuge were all used.

"Meaning the possibility of a paper trail still being in existence are pretty much zero; as the South Africans and their suppliers will have done EVERYTHING possible to cover their tracks.

"The only circumstantial "proof" (and I use the word proof in quote marks for a reason) is that the world's most recognised collector of South African Air Force watches believes them to have been issued.

"I have no idea as to why IWC will not issue certificates for the BOAC watches either, as I have seen several of them all with the same configuration, and after they were purchased at British Govt. surplus sales in the early 1980s they subsequently commanded a lower retail value than the Military marked ones, hardly an incentive for a faker to 'cobble' one up."

Although we are all entitled to have our own opinions, the fact remains that, although no conclusive evidence has yet, emphasis on yet, been uncovered that SAAF purchased and used Ref 2612s (with case number) operationally, and that BOAC used military Mark 11s (without case numbers or military engravings), whatever circunstancial evidence is being uncovered, tends to indicate the SAAF and BOAC Mark 11s shown in this and the threads Another SAAF beauty and My newest acquisition are authentic, while there is zero evidence to support the theory the engravings were made by one or more unscrupulous dealers.