Authenticity problems with a beautiful Ingenieur ref 666AD

Hello everyone,
It´s good to be back on the forum. Last time I was here was many years ago, more precisely in 2009, to discuss the legendary Mark XI.

Recently, I stumbled upon an Ingenieur ref 666AD, and purchased it without doing the thorough background work, trusting the dealer. It now turns out that there is an issue due to lack of corresponding numbers between the case serial number and the serial number of the movement. The case no is 1365xxx (which maybe dates it to 1956 or possibly 1957, thus the first generation 852 era), whereas the movement, a cal 8531 (which, as far as I know was in production from around 1958-59, correct?) has the serial no 1704xxx, which dates to around 1963?

Since IWC does not issue extracts from the archive anymore, I would very much welcome some advice from the learned scholars in this community regarding the watch.The black, pan-pie dial is a tritium version (T Swiss T), which, as far as I can tell, is in accordance with a 8531-era Ingenieur.

Any confirmation that my suspiscions are correct are welcome, as well as any counter-arguments. One possible explanation could be an old IWC -service, since the watch also has the large fish-logo crown. But without any paper work to support it…well…I have my doubts. But I am willing to lears, and unfortunately, the dealer in question refuses to respond to my emails.

Thanks for your time!
Jan

How about a photograph of this piece to give the jury something to go on.

It's obviously not a good sign that the dealer refuses to respond to emails. In this age of the internet, though, you do have some leverage, as you could gently point out that if he remains non-responsive you will identify him publicly and tell your story.

The disparity between the case and movement numbers may be a problem, but not necessarily. A T SWISS T dial is, in my view, more likely to be found in a '60s Inge than one from the '50s.

Photos would help greatly in your effort to get feedback.

Regards,

Tony C.

Hello, and thank you both for your response. I feel very silly, but I actually don´t know how to post pictures here. And I can´t seem to find an instruction anywhere. I tried the URL-function but it didn´t work the way I´m used to copying from Photobucket.

Some additional information though: the case back has the usual engravings, but a the bottom there is what looks almost like a keyhole symbol, followed by the numbers 93.

And yes, to me a T Swiss T dial is indicative of the 8531 era, which is problematic in regard to the relatively low serial no of the case.

Jan

From "photobucket" copy and paste .img file not url and it should work

Here are a few pictures. Hope it works, and appreciate any comments. I don´t have any pictures of the inside of the case back or the movement. Sorry.

Nice looking Ingenieur. It might be OK despite the age difference between case and movement. Have at look at Larry Seiden, Marco Schönenberger and David Ter Molen's brilliant article Vintage Ingenieur
Quote:
"At the end of 1950s IWC introduced an enhanced version of its automatic calibre, the c.853/8531. The changes between the c.852x and the c.853x were minor and affected only a few parts. Apparently, IWC sometimes upgraded the older c. 852x movement with these improvements when they were serviced.
The c.853x movement was introduced in 1958, while the production of c.852 calibre ended one year later. For the Ingenieur line it seems that 1959 was the year of transition as several archive extracts from Schaffhausen show that both calibres were sold to dealers during this period."
JK

Thank you kindly for your comments. I am familiar with the passage you quoted. The problem is, of course, that there is no paper work on the watch to substantiate such a theory. I guess the only way to truly find out if IWC has performed a possible upgrade of the watch at some point, is to send it to them for an inspection. At the same time, I feel quite reluctant right now to spend more money on what could also be a "franken" watch. Besides, having purchased the watch in good faith from a prolific dealer, I am still waiting for his response. I have to admit that I am beginning to have my doubts regarding ever getting a reply...

More input is welcome! I appreciate any help on this one...

While it remains possible that the case and movement are original, there are, in my view, other issues with the watch.

There is a possibility, if not probability that the dial is a replacement. The date wheel should be black, not white, raising questions about whether the original dial was black.

The case has also seen some polishing, and judged by the lugs, more than a little.

I don't know what you paid for it, but I am very skeptical that it is fully original, and the condition of the case should have warranted a discount.

Regards,

Tony C.

Hello Tony,
Thanks for your insights! Yes, the dial could well be a replacement, just as the movement. The dial belongs to the 853 era (I´m not sure though how conclusive the opinion is regarding black/white discs as original to black dials. As stated in the Vintage Ingenieur article quoted above, there seem to be too many variations available for a final opinion on this based soley on the original catalogues.)

Tony, you also suggest that it might still be possible that the case and movement are original to the watch. How is that, based on the serial range and the year respectively indicated by that? I would very much like to learn more about that!

Although I have collected Ingenieurs on and off for many years, I have no special knowledge of serial number idiosyncrasies relating to that particular model line. However, across many (vintage) brands and model lines, it is not uncommon to find disparities in dates of production, and sometimes they are wide.

What I am saying is simply that the disparity, while raising questions, does not automatically preclude the possibility that they left Schaffhausen together.

With regard to the date disc, I am skeptical that black dial Ingenieurs left the factory with white discs. Or, put another way, the evidence suggests that not only black dials, but also blue dials (Inges and Yacht Clubs) were typically fitted with dark, rather than white discs.

Hello Tony,
And thanks for clarifying your comments on this watch. My question to the forum is: does anyone have a legit vintage IWC with a serial number gap between the case no and the movement no such as I have stated here? The question is not only of interest because of this particular watch, but as a general topic covering possible discrepancies between case and movements serial numbers. Any comments greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Jan

Hi everyone,
I have now decided to send the watch to IWC for an inspection. In this way, there will hopefully be a final verdict on the watch. I will let you know the outcome. In the mean time, I would very much appreciate if you would consider sharing any observations regarding discrepancies between case and movement serial numbers in vintage IWC watches.

Thanks!
Jan

Hi,
Most ingenieurs I've seen don't have much of a gap in serial numbers.
Indeed the calendar wheel should be black with white numbers and a closer pics of the dial would tell if it's a redial or not. Despite that, the watch is very pretty, so just enjoy it.

Well, I have spotted some of those white calendar wheels with black dials.

It is not a "should have" issue for me.

This article has a hint as well:

666 variants

And my authentic "female" Ing. with a white date disk:-)

Thank you for your additional comments. This morning (oddly enough on a Sunday), I recieved an email from IWC, with a confirmation that the watch actually is in their registers (I gave them both serial numbers and specifically asked for some indication, which they very kindly provided). I have now handed in the watch to an IWC retailer for further transport. Please note that the watch is still not authenticated. Let´s see what they have to say after a thorough inspection. I will keep you posted, but it will probably take a few weeks...

Regards,
Jan

Hebe, ok, I agree, maybe it's not a should have...
Some years ago I bought part of a watchmaker's estate returned from Angola. Among other things I found a box with 10 x 666 Ingenieur NOS dials. 1 was black with silver marks, 1 was black with pink gold marks, then there were 8 white dials, 4 for gold and 4 for the SS. But the curious part is that there were calendar wheels for each dial in the respective colours. So I'm guessing that there was some concern about the matching tones...
In case you guys are wondering and to my dismay, I don't have them any longer ;-(

While I am certainly open-minded about the possible existence of anomalies, the facts remain that:

a) "All known cataloged versions of black-dialed Ingenieurs have a black date window -- that is, white date numbers on a black background." source: the oft-referenced Dial Variations article

b) the vast majority of both Ingenieurs and Yacht Clubs with black, grey or blue dials feature dark date disks, further suggesting that IWC was typically consistent in the use of darker shades with darker dials

c) the vast majority of those 666s that now feature white disks are not owned by the original owner, and so there is a possibility, if not probability, that the disks or dials were changed at some point over the past 50-60 years

These points lead me to the conclusion that if there were anomalous black/white examples that left together, they are very rare, and that therefore, barring a compelling provenance, all such examples should be treated with skepticism. This is especially true of examples such as the subject watch, where there are other questions relating to originality.

Regards,

Tony C.