Authenticity problems with a beautiful Ingenieur ref 666AD

While I am certainly open-minded about the possible existence of anomalies, the facts remain that:

a) "All known cataloged versions of black-dialed Ingenieurs have a black date window -- that is, white date numbers on a black background." source: the oft-referenced Dial Variations article

b) the vast majority of both Ingenieurs and Yacht Clubs with black, grey or blue dials feature dark date disks, further suggesting that IWC was typically consistent in the use of darker shades with darker dials

c) the vast majority of those 666s that now feature white disks are not owned by the original owner, and so there is a possibility, if not probability, that the disks or dials were changed at some point over the past 50-60 years

These points lead me to the conclusion that if there were anomalous black/white examples that left together, they are very rare, and that therefore, barring a compelling provenance, all such examples should be treated with skepticism. This is especially true of examples such as the subject watch, where there are other questions relating to originality.

Regards,

Tony C.

Hello,
Just a short update on the watch. I have now recieved a second email from IWC, this time from another branch of the European "concierge". This time my suspicion that the numbers do not match is confirmed. This is getting exciting and slightly confusing. It´s a good thing it is on its way to Schaffhausen for a thorough verdict. The seller has also finally contacted me, and says that he will refund me if IWC does not authenticate the watch. I will keep you posted.

I am also eager to learn more about the dial/discs, which is an interesting discussion in its own right in this thread, but will not forward my own thoughts on this, since I am not an expert.

Regards,
Jan

Here is an update from IWC regarding the above discussed Ingenieur 666AD. After a thorough examination of the watch, the following facts have been disclosed regarding the two "issues" or question marks that accompanied the watch.

1. The mismatch between the serial number of the case versus the serial number of the movement. At this point no further explanation has been given, but IWC confirms that the watch is authentic and original. Serial number tables on the internet are good tools for indicating the age of a time piece, but are not exact sources by any means. However, I´m still hoping for further information from IWC regarding this point.

2. The black dial versus the white date wheel. Did these watches occasionaly leave IWC with white date wheels and black dials? Well, one watch will certainly not be able to answer that question, but in this particular case, IWC is very clear with their reply. The black dial is an all original IWC dial, no question, but IWC distictly claims that this was not the dial originally mounted on the watch.

IWC is prepared to authenticate the watch with a certificate only after a)a full service has been made b)and after replacing the dial and matching hands.

I have decided to go though with the "restoration" of the watch. I have seen some of the restoration work done by IWC in the past, and have found it to be very good. Being a "patina" guy myself, I am not sure how I will respond to a restored watch, but even if I would decide not to keep the watch in the future (or maybe I will just love it), I think this is the right decision to take. IWC will take care of the watch, restore it to its original specifications, all will be documented and authenticated, and the watch will be ready to be treasured and enjoyed for many years to come, by me, my sons, or by someone else who appreciates a nice piece of horology.

I hope this information can be of help to other collectors as well.

Regards,
Jan

Thank you very much for the update. Interesting informations. I think you have made the right decision regarding "restoration". I hope you will like the watch when it returns from Schaffhausen. Good luck!
Jens-Kristian

Jan Hi,

You made the correct decision - no doubt about it. Whilst one can always debate the pro's 'n cons of "to SPA or NOT TO SPA", in this case it's a very wearable watch, and given that there is discussion around that being the original dial or not, then a SPA means that in the end, the watch is again 100% "aus Schaffhausen"!

And we all know, that those Wizards of Schaffhausen will do a fantastic job of it, returning to you a watch that will be 8531's pride and joy.

I for one, cant wait to see the results.

Best regards
Mark

Hi Mark and Jens-Kristian,

Thanks for the feedback and for supporting my decision! I will post pictures of the watch when it returns, but I suspect it will take a while...

Jan

Thanks for the update. Most importantly the case and movement left the factory together, underscoring yet again that disparities in serial numbers are not, by themselves, a reliable guide to originality.

No other surprises, either, as the dial appeared to be a replacement, albeit genuine IWC. And as there was a dial replacement, I maintain my original hypothesis that the watch likely left the factory with a white or silver dial and white date wheel, hence the current mismatch.

Regards,

Tony C.

Interesting story and thanks for the update. All parties seem to have emerged satisfied, including the dealer. I look forward to a picture of the watch after its return from Schaffhausen.

Hi again guys,
Here is some additional information. I asked the retailer in charge of sending the watch to IWC for additional information and they kindly provided some direct quotes from IWC. The former information was based on the conclusions presented to me by the IWC retailer.As I read the direct quotes from IWC, the story became slightly different.

I am still on the hunt for an explanation regarding the mismatch between the serial numbeer of the case and of the movement. I hope to be able to get back to you regarding this (unless IWC really gets tired of me). But as regards the dial, some interesting new information was presented: it turns out the reason IWC wants to replace the dial is NOT because it is a replacement dial. It is said to be the original dial, but it has been exposed to an "external intervention" and IWC thus wants to replace it. What this "external intervention" means remains to be explained more in detail by IWC (repaint, repair, damage, restoration, there are several possibilities). But, and here comes the interesting part, they claim that the white date wheel is a replacement, and here is a quote to really confirm Tony´s theory, and to chime in with all the known catalogues from the era of course: "Originally it [the watch] had a black date wheel and a black dial". Does this mean that IWC have records of what dial color each watch produced had as they left the factory?

I will keep you posted as I recieve any further information...

Regards,
Jan

Oh, now this is getting interesting; thank you for the update. I, too, am looking forward to seeing photos. of the watch once it has been restored.
I do hope that you'll be as pleased at the result as I have been.
And I am fascinated to know the answer to your last question Jan.

Well, that is an interesting twist. I would be surprised if IWC kept track of the specific dial variations, as that hasn't been my experience with other high-volume manufacturers, notably Omega and Longines.

Hmmm...

Hi Tony,
I agreee. I am a bit confused, thus my concluding question in my previous comment, which I have also forwarded to IWC. How do they know this was the original dial and not the original date wheel? I hope we will recieve some good answers.

I wish everyone a great weekend!

Jan

Hi 8531,
I hesitate to comment as nearly all of the possibilities and theories have already been posted. Just a summary of my own experiece and that of several expert vintage collectors, as well as from articles published over the last 15 years.
One of the reasons that there are so many dial variations is that the Ingenieurs were made in large numbers over a long period of time. When a watch came for service or repair, IWC watchmakers did not hesitate to mount parts in a movement that were developed after the actual watch had been issued : so for instance a part from a cal. 5831 movement in a 583 movement. Absolute authenticity, as strived for by many vintage collectors, was not an issue for IWC and its watchmakers. Collecting simply did not exist. Therefore I would not hesitate to buy an Ingenieur with a white or black date wheel, still a genuine and original IWC part.
Sometyhing else is whether the case number and the movement number are matching, that is to say whether they were one and the same watch when it left the factory. It is well known that movements have been transplanted from one case into another but never by IWC as far as I know. For me and several vintage collectors the original match between case and movement is essential and I know of several examples when IWC refused to provide an extract of the ledger if there was a mismatch. In the communication IWC is always very polite to its customers and sometimes the question of the customer must be asked straight foreward to receive a straight foreward answer : is the case the original case in which the movement was mounted at production can be answered only by yes or no. The comments of authorised dealers are of no importance to me : they are interested in selling new watches and in general they do not have any knowledge of watches made half a century ago. This problem of vintage issues might even influence the level of knowledge in Schaffhausen, simply because the people who have designed, developed and built these watches have been retired now.
Kind regards,
Adrian,
(alwaysiwc).

In response to Adrian's input:

It is, of course, true that parts were replaced by IWC (and other manufacturers), and that the concerns of future collectors were of no consequence to those servicing the watches.

However, because language is important, and particularly so to collectors, I would not characterize a replacement part as being "original". It may well be a "genuine" part, which is very important, but if it wasn't affixed to the watch on delivery from the factory, then in no meaningful sense can it reasonably be considered original.

Whether one is comfortable spending significant sums to acquire watches that are not fully original is another matter, and purely subjective.

To my mind, the available evidence weighs heavily in favor of the hypothesis that black (or grey) date wheels were typically used by IWC not only on black dialed ref. 666 Ingenieurs, but also on other black and grey dialed models from the '60s and '70s. This is supported by a preponderance of evidence in the form of existing watches from the period, and, to my knowledge, all related advertisements and promotional material.

The only possibilities that I can imagine to explain apparent anomalies would be that IWC literally ran out of darker wheels, and briefly substituted white wheels (unlikely), or that a very small number of customers requested the lighter color for legibility, and that those requests were fulfilled (possible).

In any case, it seems clear, at least to me, that any Ingenieur with a black dial and white date wheel should be assumed to be a mismatch (and therefore non-original), unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary.

Cheers,

Tony C.

Thanks for your comment Tony C.
Explained in a better way as I did the important clue of your view is in the last part.
Why would a watchmaker at IWC use a white or grey date wheel if the original "native" wheel was black?
Because the the stock of black wheels ended at a certain moment in time.
If and when this happened was not documented and not communicated to the customer and it must have been no problem for most of the customers. Otherwise the watches to be served would have been put aside until the black wheels were available again. The fact that date wheels were exchanged in Schaffhausen and not by an at random watchmaker somewhere else, confirms that IWC respected and supported this way of service.
Kind regards,
Adrian
(alwaysiwc)
BTW : An extensive discussion about "authentic" , "original" and "genuine" has been posted here by Clepsydra on the topic of Extracts of the Archives.

Hi Adrian,

Yes, I agree that it is more likely that white wheels were used as replacements at later service intervals.

Thank you also for the reminder about Clepsydra's thread. I recall having taken part, but have yet to read any compelling arguments that "original" might be an appropriate classification for a watch featuring parts that were not present when it left the factory.

I do appreciate that there are different levels, so to speak, of what is considered by collectors to be original. For example, a watch that is completely original other than a mainspring or crystal that has been replaced might loosely be considered to remain "original". But that is, of course, quite different from a replacement part that would differ significantly from those that comprised the watch when it left the factory.

Cheers,

Tony C.

Hi Adrian and Tony.
I had forgotten about that thread. www.iwc.com/forum/en/discussion/64315/?page=1
I initiated it to stimulate a discussion but with little hope of reaching a consensus on the matter, and was not surprised when none was reached.

unlikely, because two different worlds.

• One is talking about tools.

• One is talking about luxury art.

But at that time, those watches were just tools and nobody has cared about different interpretation of "original".

Main thing was just an accurate working tool !!!!