Caliber 79350 Valjoux 7750/Chronograph 3714

Hi there,
I am a new comer to the IWC world, so I would really appreciate some clarifications in simple words from the experts who are discussing here.
well, I am a recent owner of the portuguese chronograph (ref 3714). I purchased it recently and in parallel started just for fun reading into the wonderful IWC 2010/2011 annual in order to get more info about history, manufacturing, present models, etc. Then I came across the table that shows and discusses the IWC own developed calibres and surprisingly did not find there the 79350 of ref 3714. On the net I read that for this model, the company uses actually a movement that is actually produced by mass production (ETA Valjoux 7750). Here I start to be a puzzled...can it be? can someone explain why a watch which costs in Switzerland nearly 17'000 Swiss francs is not actually equipped with a top IWC movement like the most of the other models? by the way, according the to table in the IWC annual, also their flagship, the grand complication is probably not based on an IWC calibre? any clarifications with this issue will be highly appreciated.
regards,
simius

Salut Simius,
Tu as raison, ta portugaise chronograph automatic possède un calibre basé sur un Valjoux 7750.Mais il a été profondément remanié et amélioré par les ingénieurs d'IWC; Si le 7750 n'existait pas, il n'y aurait pas beaucoup de chronographs accessibles financièrement sur le marché; D'ailleurs de nombreuses marques prestigieuses l'utilisent : Breitling, Oméga, Porsche Désign, Panerai,etc...Ce mouvement est fiable et performant, même si les puristes le dédaignent parceque ce n'est pas un calibre de manufacture.En fait, même le mouvement de la Portugaise Vintage (Calibre 98295) est basé sur un mouvement Unitas...et c'est sur cette base que sont développées certaines grandes complications!!!Une fois retravaillé par les experts d'IWC,saches que le mouvement final n'a plus rien à voir avec le calibre de base!Salut.TEX

The 3714 has retained it's value over the years because it is an excellent watch--the movement issue that you mention hasn't kept people from enjoying the watch which, incidentally, keeps excellent time.

Hi Simius,

Your question is a very interesting and is best answered face to face. However, we do not have the luxury of doing that. All I can say in a politically correct manner as part of this forum, is that the calibre you are referring to, has been produced by ETA according to IWC's strict standards. If IWC will test the movement and ensure that it is exactly the same as if it was made in the factory at Schaffhausen. The reason for doing so is basically to develop a collection of 'entry-level' watches at a reasonable price for budding watch lovers out there. By 'outsourcing' the production of some of their 'entry-level' watches, IWC could then focus their resources into developing more in-house movements and innovations for their 'mid - high' level watches. This explanation is of course just the tip of the iceberg....

Hi,
thanks a lot for your feedback..however, what still puzzles me in this explanation is that the movement of the grand complication (also in the portuguese version), the so-called # Calibre 79091 was at its very beginning also valjoux 7750 (power reserve 44hrs, for example, common to all 7750-based calibres), which of course has been much extensively modified (bit more than 79350..)...isn't it?
best..
simius

Bonjour Tex,
thanks you very much for your explanations (no problem...can't write very well in french, but I understood)..
simius

Dear Simius,

If you google and/or search the forum on IWC and ETA 7750 you will find many interesting infmn. In short ETA makes this caliber in several grades. IWC buys the highest grade (chronometer grade which basically means it will pass COSC certification), not assembled but in parts, they then change maybe half of the components to better ones, they fine tune and improve the remaining components, then assemble and test, fine tune again etc. So they more or less makes this movement their own. Compare and BMW M to an ordinary BMW or an AMG to an ordinary Mercedez.
Besides the Valjoux 7750 is a very robust and proven movement so it's a good basis. Many quality watch makes like Omega, Breitling, Panerai, etc apart from IWC use this movement in some of their watches. However as ETA are phasing out their supply to other watchmakers outside the Swatch group, most watchmakers was forced to develop more in-house movements. I guess this means that even entry models will become more expensive from now on.

I am actually a bit more surprised for lack of explanation for my initial post from some IWC official...
what is actually the reason that 7314 for its price is not based on a 100% in-house made engine?
Isn't it justified to see IWC in the category of Audemars Piguet or Patek Phillipe? are the chronographs from these manufacturers also based on 7750?
Finally, could anyone elaborate if Calibre 79091 is also actually indeed based on Valjoux 7750?
Thanks,
Simius

hi simius,
my turn to try english writing...iwc has developped a new chrono.calibre for the potuguaise yachtclub, but the 7314 is still used for the classical portugaise chrono.This is the most cheap portugaise anyone can buy....the price of dream.Although, I have a portofino chrono with the 79320 calibre also issued from 7750, but the portofino costs half less than the portugaise!!Don't worry, IWC knows how to produce excellent watches since 140 years,and your calibre is a very good one.

Hi Simius,

The short answer to your question is yes. Bear in mind that IWC only uses the 7750 as a blueprint guide. The finished product however, due to heavy modifications, looks nothing like the blueprint.

Part of the problem is that everyone is busy at the annual trade show (SIHH) this week. Another part of the problem is that this issue has been covered extebnsively over many years, with hundreds of posts and actually I'msurprised that you apparently haven't searched the archives.

Keep in mind that "in-house" is not necessarily good or better. There are bad in-house movements and good out-sourced movements. Many times, companies produce in-house for two reasons which have zero to do with quality: preception of new purchasers or control of the supply chain.

Back 20 years ago, there were very few companies producing their own chrono. Until a couple of years ago, Patek used a Lemania base for its chrono. In IWC's case, it used the "workhorse" 7750, heavily modified. As the archives report, only a small fraction of the original parts (was it 60 out of 400?) from the original 7750 remain.

In about 2005 the first chrono that's in-house from IWC, used in the Da Vinci chrono, debuted. It's really a terrific movement, but its cost prohibits its use in the lower price ranges (generally under 10000 Francs or dollars).

P.S. quick clarification: only a fraction of the parts of the 7750remain in the Grand Complication.

Dear Michael,
Ok, thanks for your clarifications.
As I said in my first post, I am a new comer to the field, but this is all interesting information. Seems that there is not really one clear guideline in the issue of which movement for which watch..initially and based on some replies I got (including from you..), it seemed that the lower priced models get movements developed elsewhere, whereas models above a certain cost get the in-house calibres..you mentioned for example the 10'000 francs/$ border..well, your confirmation that the grand complication, which will sell for ~ 250'000$ is actually based on 7750 is still a surprising issue, isn't it? and the same is probably true also for the Da Vinchi Kurt Klaus edition...probably?
well the main conclusion is that my modest 3714 is really in good company..
hope you enjoy Geneva!
thanks again and regards..

What this reader fails to account for is the utter arbitrary nature of the designation of "in-house". An arbitrariness of which I also was unaware until recently. The arbitrariness of this term is further exacerbated by the extent of work that the major watch firms make to a mass-manufactured movement. The Valjoux 7750 is an amazing movement once IWC has worked it's magic on it. I only care about the quality of the movement, not who made it. It serves to remember, however, that the value that we place on in-house movements is predicated upon the belief/expectation that because it is in-house it is better, more creative, more fastidiously created. To the extent however this is not the case, or, conversely, to the extent a mass manufactured movement is so reworked as to make it amazing, there's no reason for us to apply these prejudices. See the attached article for an excellent discussion by experts with respect to this question.

www.hodinkee.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-has-in-house-movement-become-obsolete