Discovery of a very early Jones --or not?

This story involves another series of E-mails I received from a stranger. It also involves whether this person owns one of the earliest Jones watches made by IWC.

A week ago someone named Connie wrote me after doing some Internet research. She said her late father left her a few pocket watches and she was trying to learn about them. All the photos were fuzzy and it was clear Connie didn’t know much about watches. The first photo was of the case and didn’t tell me a thing:

[](www.iwcforum.com/)

Nor did the shot of an unsigned dial reveal anything:

[](www.iwcforum.com/)

But the third photo was a cut-off shot of an appraisal, apparently by someone who also didn’t know what the watch was but tried to describe it:

[](www.iwcforum.com/)

Now, if the description in the appraisal was accurate there were a few things that peaked my interest. First, the movement had on it “D. H. Craig NY NY” –wasn’t that engraved on many early Jones movements?

And it also said “Elson’s Patent” –wasn’t that also engraved on many early Jones movements? In fact, were any watch movements produced with both “Craig” and “Elson” on them that weren’t made by F.A. Jones while he was at IWC?

I therefore suspected that this watch was an IWC, or at least had an IWC movement. Not all was clear, especially given that I didn’t have a photo of the movement. But also one other thing on the appraisal interested me: it said that the movement had serial number 896.

Now that would be remarkable. It woudn’t make it the earliest but it would be incredibly early. Our friend Ralph Ehrismann, a real Jones expert, wrote here that he once saw number 663 and the lowest he once owned was 2213. So I wrote Connie asking for more photos, including the movement. She confirmed the engravings, but the photos were equally blurry with this the best, after my sharpening of it:

[](www.iwcforum.com/)

Now –I do think it’s a Jones. After all the wheels seem to have the correct layout, and more importantly there’s that distinctive Jones “needle” for the regulator. But wait –there are a few things I’m not sure about:

--is it lever set, as described in the appraisal? I didn’t know any Jones were –but maybe that’s my ignorance or an error in the appraisal.

--it’s unusual to have a Savonette movement (with crown at 3) in an open case (non-Hunter, without front lid) –not impossible, but not typical. Could it be recased? Especially with a generic dial?

--looking at the movement closely shows that the balance cock appears curved, which I don’t think is typical for a Jones.

And then there’s one more thing. Connie also wrote Schaffhausen. Now I realize people answering enquiries aren’t watch experts and, given her poor photos and lack of detail, someone might have made a mistake. But she did receive an E-mail saying [i]“After inspecting the picture, we have to inform you that your pocket watch is not from IWC.”[i]

So what do you think? I’ll check with some of our Jones experts too.

Regards,
Michael
P.S. The watch is not for sale.

Discovery of a very early Jones --or not?

Looks like a genuine Jones 'H' to me although probably not an original case. Actually the earliest 'H' we know is No 576. Also D. H. Craig. For your information, 663 is a quality B (Greenleaf Romney) and is in my collection) There is also a 603 quality B known.
Alan

Discovery of a very early Jones --or not?

Maybe I should have added, that the H (and E) do have a curved balance cock and yes, they are lever set - it returns to wind when the front is closed - this was a Jones patent (also only on the H and E).
Mind you, I wonder how this works in a lepine case!

Discovery of a very early Jones --or not?

Hello Michael,
as Alan mentioned before, I agree with him that this is a genuine JONES movement (design of the watch plate is US-D4459). After comparing several pictures of several CRAIG version, their signatures was mostly with "D.H.Craig, Elson´s Patent...". Sadlywise are the pictures not so sharp as we need for better observing, but speaking for the movement, I can identify it as JONES.
Sincerely
Antonios Vassiliadis

Discovery of a very early Jones --or not?

Hello Michael,
as Alan mentioned before, I agree with him. It´s a real Jones.
Feel free to see my homepage with serials of over 150 different Jones movements.
My best regards
Tony

What a story - and thread!

I love these stories. Thanks for sharing!
Peter

better pictures

Afternoon everyone - My name is Connie and I think I have finally been able to take better pictures of the pocket watch. Thank you all for the information about this timepiece. I will have to have Mr Friedberg post as I'm not clear how to attach photos on this thread.

good luck - more would be great (nt)

Here's one of your photos

I spent some time adjusting your image. I did only one since the others didn't show more, once the image was adjusted.

As for the case and dial,. it's quite likely they are not original to the watch. If so the value of the watch diminishes significantly in my opinion (because this forum is non-commercial we can't really appraise watches here).

Thank you for your information,
Michael

Here's one of your photos

Thank you for showing the picture. I wsn't trying to get information on value, but to show other members the movement and serial number more clearly since they had asked.

If it is indeed of historical significance (the movement) I wanted to share this with those who have an interest in early IWC timepieces. This forum seems to have many extremely knowledgable members and being one that does not know about watches, I just wanted to share what I have been told about this pocket watch.

Elson's patent

It is unusual to see Elson's Patent written in that way, usually it is written around the rim of the winding wheel. In later examples it is written around both the winding and crown wheels and includes the date (Sept 15th, 1866).

Early Jones Mystery

Have any other Forum members seen the Elson Patent written this way?

I had also heard that IWC kept records when the watches were first sold. I would still like to try and trace the ownership to find out how this pocket watch came to belong to my father. Since the movement serial number is marked No. 896, can IWC date the watch and to whom it was first sold?

Maybe I will never know the full history, but I do really appreciate everyone's expertise and any information.

The earliest records don't exist....

...and specifically there are no records showing production dates or first purchasers for Jones movements. It is only with the "second numbering" (starting in about 1885) that full records exist. Please see the link below.

By the way, "Craig" reportedly was a tradename used because it was the name of Jones' mother. And “Elson’s Patent" refers to a patent for safety mainspring with a special attachment which disconnects in the event of the spring’s breakage to prevent damage to the gear train.

I'll let Mr. Myers correct me on technical details here.

click here

The earliest records don't exist....

Nothing to correct you are absolutely right.
Jones mother's maiden name was, as you say, Craig. The earliest Jones H were engraved 'D. H. Craig New York' but later they were just engraved 'Craig New York' and by serial No 1863 had changed to 'International Watch Co New York'.
.
Another strange thing I just noticed however is that the 'H' is rotated 90 degrees from its normal orientation and is very slender. So infact all the engraving is rather unusual. I have no doubt that it is genuine. Perhaps the usual engraver was absent and a different engraver used his own interpretation!
That's what I like about these early watches - each one has a unique personality!

Other engraving photos

Are there any other photos of an early IWC Jones with a 3 digit serial number to see what those engravings looked like?

Here's one

Here is No 953 unfortunately recased as a wrist watch

oops Image

s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg267/Eurydactylodes/?action=view&current=IWCJ-Werk1-r.jpg