ETA movements are anywhere...

Dear all
I just would like to share with you some thoughts about watch movements.
After years of research, mainly on internet, in the watch field, I have realized, with a bit of disappointment, that at least the 95% of the mechanical watches on the market within the price range between € 0 - € 5.000, are moved by ETA calibers. And here I am talking about any kind of brand and about any kind of watch complication.
I'm sharing this with you because I think it is a bit of a shame that from an inside point of view, any watch from any brand in the aforementioned price range, is approximately the same, from Hamilton, to Longines, to IWC , to Eberhard, to Corum, Hublot, Nardin, GP , Baume & Mercier, Tissot, Omega, Panerai, and I could go on and on… Anyone then, of course, add a bit of a personal touch to the ETA caliber. But, substantially, what really change? It just marketing, I guess.
Find a watch with a bit of “horological” value in terms of R&D, innovation, uniqueness, etc. without having to apply for a bank loan...is getting almost impossible.
Recently, I bumped into a watch magazine which was presenting a comparison of all the best sellers among chronographs. IWC was of course there, with the Portuguese chrono and the Aquatimer Chrono. I sadly realized that 99% of them were ETA based. The few exceptions were way out the € 0- € 5.000 price range.
What’s your view about the above? Is it probably because the majority does not really care much about movements, innovation, etc. but just want to show off a nice looking watch with a reputable/recognizable brand? And why watch manufacturers keep going in this direction?

Cheers
Matteo

Oh, dear. We haven't had this discussion in a while, but there's plenty of information about the subject in the archives. There is a regrettable cynicism when you might accuse IWC of "just marketing" or "showing off". Also, despite your "research" you may not have full information at your disposal.

Let me ask you:
1. Can you tell me one thing technically inferior about, say, an ETA 2892=A2 movement? (I really doubt that you can).
2. Did you know that almost all Patek chronographs (except for some recent ones), including relatively contemporary models selling for more than $100,000 and vintage ones over $100,000 use Lemania (a sister of ETA) base movements?
3. Did you know IWC's Grand Comp uses a Valjoux 7750 base, with several hundred parts replaced/added/modified?

You can read on the Internet, as well in our archives, about what IWC does (or has done) to ETA and Valjoux base movements.

IWC does have in-house movements, of course, but they generally are more expensive to produce and therefore are in more expensive watches.

Hi Matteo,

this link may also be of some interest to you:

When a 7750 ain't a 7750 any longer --
Reworking the workhorse Valjoux 7750

You'll note the thickness of the contributions is very high, I mean, very high! :)

Take for instance what Walt Odets, one of the most brilliant minds in watchmaking journalism (and watchmaker himself) says.

Happy reading :)

ETA movements have been made by the thousands over a number of years. They do a good job of keeping time (which is, after all, the purpose of a watch). High production volume keeps cost down which makes them economical to use. Putting an ETA movement into any watch ensures good service at reasonable cost. This permits the watch to give adequate or better perfomrance at a lower target price. Over the years this combination has satisfied many of those looking for such a combination.
In house movements require tooling, design, assembly, etc., all of which add to the cost of the movement. This additional cost is not necessarily reflected in the accuracy of the watch. So, one might ask,other than the feel-good factor, why would one pay more for the watch?

Here are three other links that may help your understanding. Personally, I have no issue whatsoever with ETA movements as part of an IWC offering. The extent of the reworking done makes the movement unique to IWC. The performance of these movements is excellent.

Link one

Link two

Link three

What somebody looks for in a watch is different to different people, but what I am looking for is:
a) a watch of great quality in every respect,
b) a watch that looks great in my eyes.
The ETA movements are very good movements. I have one watch with an ETA chronograph in it, the Saint Exupéry Chrono: no trouble at all. I also have a few watches with in-house movements, a small bonus to me. Most IWC watches look great to me, so there this story ends for me. And, o yes, I think these watches are reasonably priced. As for in-house chronographs, IWC has a wonderful 89360 movement: alas, the watches that have it don't appeal to me enough. And if Patek Philippe can make an exquisite in-house chronograph, put it in a steel case, and ask a six figure price for it, and sell it too, great to Patek Philippe, but I'm not in. I see no problem here at all.

Kind regards,
Paul

Hello Michael
thanks for your reply and thanks for the input from the other members.
I understand your point and I have know the articles mentioned below about what IWC does on the ETA movements to make them uniques. But here I am not making any criticism so there is no need, I guess, for getting defensive. I actually own an IWC portuguese chrono and I am quite happy about that. It looks great, probably the best looking watch I know. I just do not get that intangible pleasure from its inside heart, but probably that is why I could afford to buy it...no?

And I guess we are not talking here about inferior/superior about ETA. The magic of the watch, in my modest opinion, is not about its performances or, we wouold all just buy a seiko spring drive or a quartz watch.

It is all about craftmenship, tradition, innovation and I guess having an in-house movements plays a big role in that. But that is just my modest opinion.

I believe that ETA based calibers just do not transmit this charm. An EAT caliber is something you can find anywhere (and really anywhere....) in the watch market. Talking about Patek, I do not think that its actual cathalog has any ETA based chrono...anyway, it doesn't really matter. Here it's not about Patek or JLC or anyone else.
i just think that if in the forum anyone gets so excited about in-house movements and is keen to pay some extra-bucks to put his hands on such in house jewels...probably there is a reason...probably there is some extra value in there. But if you honestly put an ETA 2892 at the same grade of other let's say IWC in-house movements...ok, we just got different opinions and I'm keen to exchange some watches with you...

ehehe anyway, now I am just kidding.

Cheers and happy Ester
Matteo

I don't disagree with you, but you "pay your money and make your choice". As Pablo said, in-house costs more, including development time, etc. IWC offers both, at different price points.

Actually, I think many watch companies make in-house movements for three reasons, totally unrelated to craftmenship, tradition, and innovation. These reasons are
1) marketing --it's a sales point that few people really understand, one way or the other, but it sounds good
2) vertical control --to keep control of the parts and process as an economic matter, and not rely as much on outside suppliers
3) price --in-house costs more but produces higher margins
So much for the romance and charm elements ;)

Also, keep in mind that 99% of all Swiss watch companies with in-house movements use ETA to supply key movement parts for their in-house movements --balances almost always are made of glucydur, a special metal produced by a sister company of ETA and hairsprings are made of Nivarox, a special product also made by a sister company of ETA. These components are in the heart of 99% of "in-house" movements of every company. So much also for the in-house story ;)

Thanks for your prompt reply Michael.

Cheers
Matteo

Sir

ETA movements are used buy all Major watch companies ( although they may be adapted by individual companies in house).Do you believe that they ( i.e. ETA ) would not be so successful if they did not work closely with major brands to produce what is required by the watch indusrty; so cloesely in fact that they now produce ebauches to individual brand specifications.

Actually recently that article isn't accurate anymore as ETA doesn't provide IWC with the kits needed for modifications anymore, hence for the port chrono IWC now buy thie movement directly from ETA. However it is fully modified to IWC standards.

And you mention the spring drive..... Seiko is actually one of the few manufacturers who actually make almost every single part in their watches. So if you want in house movements.. Get the spring drive!

That said I have a port auto with the 5001 movement and the port chrono with the modified 7750, and the port chrono is more accurate.

As it is I think the use of a movement like the ETA allows IWC to design amazing looking watches like the port chrono for a reasonable price.

I doubt this.
What modification is done in your opinion?
Don´t take me wrong: I love my Fliegerchrono but I am more less sure that IWC orders the movement for let´s say 150-200 euros from ETA and puts it into the case without any modification. Once the final quality control has been done it goes to the jeweller, where idiots like me :))) pay the price for it.

Sounds like ETA could be a great investment vehicle!

+1 !

all 3 above use the modified ETA Valjoux 7750 movement -- but I can't find any other brand equivalent in terms of the historical lineage, the uniqueness of the casing, and the brushed finish of the case polishing, and the (bold, ahead of its time) usage of ceramic (and titanium for that matter).

As an aside, it was a very special moment for me when I visited the Schaffhausen facility. My guide mentioned that 'there is a saying, that one can recognize an IWC by just looking sideways at its case' -- and she couldn't have been more right. It was the case polish (and the dial clarity & brilliance of my ref 5001) that immediately captivated me. I had the privilege of being right there where the cases were polished, using a material patented and invented through collaboration between IWC and another well-known materials company.

Shing,
Nice picture, I really like the new strap on the Pilot Swisse much more in sic with the watch then the previous strap. But I do love that gray dial. ....

Kevin

To take the ETA / In house movement discussion into the motoring world, I wonder how many Maserati owners out there are annoyed that their car only has a Ferrari engine in it, instead of an engine that is designed and built in-house??

Did you know that nearly every Porsche has a Japanese gearbox?
That what you want is nearly impossible in the world today!

There is no right or wrong but rather beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What fits right for me does not necessary apply to others.

My view is that you pay for what you get. 5k euro or less you probably have to settle for ETA or modified ETA movement watch. That is the reality in the industry and across all watch brands. It really boils down to what you like and how big the hole you want go burn in your pocket. I started with owning ETA movement like the IWC pilot Chrono and other brands like Omega, Tag and slowly move to modified ETA based watch like UN, etc and as I understand appreciate more about watches and for long term values, I only buy in-house movement watches now like the JLC, Panaerai and of course IWC (latest collection is the PPC).

If I won't say I am buying a watch but rather a timepiece. To me a watch is a device meant to keep time accurately and reliably and thus if you need a watch go buy a guartz. For a timepiece is is an art and brings along with it it's unique history and tradition which cannot be replicated coupled with the technology that takes years to develop. This forms the character of the timepiece and this is what I look for when buying one.

So for me the I look at first the complication which must be in-house movement, the design of the timepiece and finally if I can afford it and if not start to plan to save for it or rather not buy anything. In house movement is what defines the life of the timepiece and that of its creator. In house movement brings along good resale investment value as well even more if it is limited edition.

The above are just my person views and thoughts.

Thanks and regards