New Spitfire 3878 - freezing with "flyback"

My AD explained to me that it is very important to push the reset or stop button with enough power and in 1 motion, to make it function properly. I tried it myself with a soft pus of the button and this resulted in a incomplete return of the chrono hands of the portuguese chrono classic.
Since i use a firm push on the button it has Always functioned correctly.

My AD also explained the same. The movement needs a lot of power for the flyback, so you also need to wait at least 20 seconds when you set the chrono off to make sure the watch has time to regenerate enough power for the flyback to function correctly. (this is a flaw in itself imo)

Really? They told you that? Mine snaps back to zero and starts counting up again regardless of whether two seconds have passed, or two minutes. Makes no difference.

Honestly, I fail to see how the flyback functionality is affected in the least by how long the chronograph has been running. That has no relation to the amount of power stored in the mainspring.

Regards,
Adam

If you dont wait 20 seconds, there is a risk that the movement freezes as not enough power to reset the mechanism.

Sounds crazy, but this is what the Service Centre advised the IWC Boutique after I sent my second watch back.

This is not correct. When you use THE flyback function you don't have to stop the chrono first.
See the text in the manual below,

" You can start recording a new time immediately, even when the chronograph is running. With the chronograph running, simply depress the reset/flyback button fully as far as it will go."

I also have à Spitfire and mine is working well. Maybe you have to push harder on the reset button.

Succes greetings Joep!

What I mean, is the AD was saying to use the flyback only after the chrono has already been started for over 20 seconds.

This is a recommendation and the AD admitted they couldnt put this in the manual. (imagine the reactions...) Anyways, mine froze even after waiting for 20 seconds.

Yeah, this "explanation" doesn't hold much water. I'm following the approach suggested earlier of simply pressing the buttons hard. So far so good. Although antithetical to the "smooth operation" attribute that most high-end chronographs are supposed to possess, it's clear that the gear tolerances on this calibre are fantastically small, and a little more effort is required to get the chronograph up and running. The up side of these tolerances more than outweighs the downside in my opinion.

This is interesting, does a chronograph build power the longer it is engaged? Sounds like a bs explanation if you look at how that chronograph actually functions.

The below comment form the manual is exactly what i mean. It has nothing to do with accumalating enough power or like wise. Just push the reset button firm enough and all the way.

" You can start recording a new time immediately, even when the chronograph is running. With the chronograph running, simply depress the reset/flyback button fully as far as it will go."

Succes greetings Joep!
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Mine froze on me only once after using the function numerous times. It was when I tried to be very gentle in pushing the button. After that, I always press it with greater force and it never happened again.

Eureka! Is this this the nail in the coffin that will finally put an end to all the issues relating to the flyback chronograph. I certainly hope so.
Kenneth.

I think this thread is quite revealing.

Some contributors seem to find it difficult to accept that IWC has had systemic problems with both the 89361 and the 89365 movements, which are both very similar.

Other contributors have revealed that Authorised IWC agencies have tried to give them nonsensical excuses to avoid dealing with their movement problems.

I do not know whether the difficulties with the 89361 and 89365 are due to a design problem or a factory adjustment problem. My own hunch is that it is a bit of both but with, perhaps, more contribution from unreliable factory adjustments and quality control.

Column wheel chronograph movements require more careful adjustment than equivalent cam based movements. That is one of the reasons (along with price) why the Valjeux 7750, a cam based movement, is so popular with watch manufacturers including, of course, IWC.

In addition, the fly back feature also requires careful adjustment at the factory. It is interesting that, as far as I am aware, ETA do not offer a flyback version of the 7750; watchmakers who want to have a flyback feature with a 7750, have to rely on outside module makers to modify the 7750.

In my case, when I originally sent my 89365 based Spitfire watch back to the factory because it was freezing when used with the flyback function, it was returned unfixed! This suggests that the factory did not have sufficiently trained quality control people or procedures to pick up the problem of the movement occasionally freezing when the flyback feature was used.

On the second time that the watch was returned to the factory, IWC replaced the movement, but when the new movement watch was returned, the chronograph seconds hand still did not return to zero reliably (as much as + or - 5 seconds off). This, by the way, was also a problem with the first watch. The new movement still very very occasionally froze and had stiff chronograph push buttons.

All of these problems have been reported by others on the forum.

Finally, when I was in Zurich, I went into the Zurich IWC boutique. The salesman said that the way the chronograph needle was off centre was normal with a mechanical chronograph! I insisted on seeing the resident watchmaker.
I was lucky to find a properly trained watchmaker to talk to. He took one look at the watch and said that the watch chronograph controls needed properly adjusting which would eliminate all the problems and he would personally see that it was done.

He was good as his word. When I got my watch back from the factory via him, the chronograph seconds hand properly now goes back precisely to zero and the chronograph push buttons are easier to use and have a consistent feel to them. The movement never freezes when the flyback function is activated.

I therefore suspect that the problems with these movements are partly a factory adjustment and quality control issue.

I should add that it is a pity that IWC sales agencies do not have better trained sales staff. From this thread, it is quite clear that many less experienced purchasers who had problems with the watch movements, have been given all sorts of silly stories so the salesman can avoid admitting that the watches in question had a problem.

Patek Philippe take another approach. In their house magazine sent to all customers, they admitted that for a number of their movements in the 1970's (350,335,310)the watch automatic winders and gears were not sufficiently reliable.

I think that brands that are open and admit their problems when they have them, gain the confidence of their customers.

In my own experience strong brand loyalty can come out of well handled difficulties. I do not think that IWC has particularly covered itself with glory in this instance.

Let us hope that the IWC factory adjustments and quality controls are now up to the challenge of making watch movements that, when properly adjusted, are amongst the best available.

The fact that IWC maintains a forum where complaints like these can be posted says a lot about IWC's willingness to have the truth come out. I think that failure rates at even the "holy trinity" watch producers remain unknown for long periods of time because (i) they don't promote a similar approach to uncontrolled communication; and (ii) a lot of their watches are "investments" that go straight into a safety deposit box and are often never even removed from their original packaging. I have an AP Royal Oak Jumbo (15202) that had to be sent back a month after I got it (for a problem that is apparently not entirely uncommon)...but you are unlikely to find any discussion of the issue on their website.