Portuguese chrono 3714 vs. 3904

Hello everybody
what is your feeling about the new born in the Portuguese family, the chronograph ref. 3904? And, how do you value it compared to the “old” ref. 3714?
My first impression was "wahoo, amazing", but after a bit, looking at it more and more and comparing it to the 3714...dunno, I started thinking that it does miss some of the elegance, the classicism and the versatility of the mythical 3714.
I own a 3714, so probably I am a bit biased in this discussion. But I think that it represents “THE CHRONO” with its elegant and superbly refined case and dial. It is just unbeatable, IMHO.
There is something special to my eyes in this two-vertical-register chrono that I can't find in any other watch out there. No superfluous date window, no modern hours + minutes chrono register. Just a super classic 30- minute dial located at 12 o'clock. Just tradition and pure, classic simplicity.
I am afraid though that with this "in-house" madness spreading out everywhere IWC may discontinue/change this beauty anytime soon...
BTW, are there any other two vertical register out there? Not for sure (I guess…) with an ETA-based caliber..
Anyway, I would love to hear your opinion about this comparison. Sorry if I disclosed so openly my feelings…

Cheers
Matteo

I like the new 3904. I was actually somewhat disappointed with most of the new Inges presented in SIHH, as I think their design is too "über-macho" and inelegant. The 40mm Inges, the Saint Exupéry chrono, and now these new Portugiesers, have restored my faith ;)

I absolutely agree with Matteo about the classic beauty of 3714, and I hope the 3904 is not going to replace it, but rather complement the Portugieser chrono portfolio.

I already have the 3714 Laureus LTE, but I have to admit that the ardoise dial 3904 both in SS and RG case is very tempting...

Matteo, no need to apologize for showing the emotions and feelings around the watch you already own (and like). It's a true icon and for all the reasons you state.

Now, the 3904 is a totally different beast (and it's exactly that difference) that IWC hope, will lend itself to SALES. I do believe too, that it will sell well. I certainly like it.

Yes, the tendency is towards in-house movements. That, by the way also somehow (certainly initially for the next few years IMHO) equates to more expensive watches. But I honestly do not believe it's driven by "fashion" - rather by;
a) ETA are slowly stopping to supply ebauches/and movements to other brands.
b)The evolving market place seems to be demanding in-house movements, as they do crystal case backs. If you need to show of a movement, then why not show off IWC's glorious "large movement' heritage, and ability to do a fine finish on a massed produced in-house movement?

As long as they have access to the movements, I believe the 3714 will stay - and will also continue to sell well.

My two cents worth.

BTW - Really enjoyed you post here.

Couldn't say it better Matteo.

There's plenty of watches out there, trying to reproduce (unsuccesfully) the magic of that dial.

I don't think ref. 3714 will be discountinued but that's just my opinion.

That said, this new one is a beauty, it's IWC's "third way" to porto-chrono-appeasement LOL!

I really like it and I can tell. I saw it in metal!

A very interesting comparison, the 3714 versus the 3904, old versus new. I see a logical development of the model, an inevitable movement in time. The 3714 is a bit more delicate, somehow you can see it is the older watch of the two. The 3904 looks a bit more solid, a bit more festive too. I guess it is a bit thicker, because of the thicker movement. What I really like is the arched-edged crystal, lending the watch a vintage appearance that the handwound Portugueses have too. Being able to see the movement, which, alas, is not possible at the Spitfire Chrono, is quite a bonus too. I think the 3904 is the nicest chrono with the 8936x movement now. It not being too big is great, making for a very wearable watch for sure.

This 3904 has everything, it is a natural beauty. If price is not an issue, this one is the watch to go for.

Kind regards,
Paul

I don't see much innovation with this new Port Chrono. It looks almost the same as the Port Yacht Club Chrono, just in a smaller case. Same movement. Blue vs red center seconds. The dial on the Chrono Classic looks cleaner.

I like both watches and I see the 3714 as a bit more dressy while the 3904 is definitely more sporty.

The 3714 is a well proven classic. It has that wonderful thin bezel, the cleaner (than 3904) chrono dial, and slightly smaller and thinner case. The 3904 is a chunkier, noticeably thicker piece that unlike the 3714 features a date window and display back.

While we won't know for many years if 3904 sells over the years as well as its predecessor, I'll bet 3904 sells very well in the near term!

A few thoughts on your observations BIW. I would agree there are similarities with the new Chrono and YC in dial design. What I really like about the new Chrono dial is as you say it is a cleaner layout. By eliminating the 3 to make room for the date window, it created a better balance than the YC. In addition, the dial design allowed the 11 not to be "eaten" unlike the YC, a definete improvement. I'm glad they continued with the blue seconds hand from the 3714 variation. Excellent diameter which may indicate a subtle start to moving the sweet spot in sizing to a 40-44 range as we see some new models being introduced in this range. Finally, a beautiful Santoni with a integrated end at the lugs like the YC is visually a beautiful flow. I think this has a pin buckle thus keeping the "classic" overall look.

All in All, a stunning piece. Thank you IWC for giving us a Ardoise/SS variation like last year's Spitfire Pilot Chrono. Love it !

Andy

I have been an outspoken critic of the in-house vs, outsourced movement debate, which to me is silly. There are good outsourced movements and mediocre in-house ones in the world. But, having said that, I will say that, to me:

The essential value of a mechanical watch is not based on a pretty dial or clever design, but the craft of its movement, its design and execution. IWC's in-house chronograph movement is agreatmovement, with better characteristics, functionally, aesthetically and theoretically. To me it's what mechanical watches are, and should be, about. The other factors count, but the movement is 80% of the watch.

I really like the 3714. It is a very nice watch. I love the new 3904. It is a great watch.

Interesting. I understand Your point Michael, and I respect good design and craftmanship in movements to be sure, but for me the movement is maybe around 50% of the watch. My reasoning is that I only buy watches I'm going to wear, so the watch absolutely has to look and feel good on my wrist. The design and execution of the case, dial, hands, crown and bracelet are therefore also important.

Maybe we should have a poll in the forum to see how the opinions differ in this regard? :)

BTW, are there any other two vertical register out there? Not for sure (I guess…) with an ETA-based caliber..

[/QUOTE]
if I understand your question correctly I guess that the pilots chronographs 3777 and 3878 represent a similar couple, with a 7750 and an in-house based chronograph caliber, respectively...
cheers,
y

[/QUOTE]
if I understand your question correctly I guess that the pilots chronographs 3777 and 3878 represent a similar couple, with a 7750 and an in-house based chronograph caliber, respectively...
cheers,
y[/QUOTE]

Other 7750/in-house couplings: Ingenieur Double Chronograph 3765/3865 v Ingenieur Chronograph 3785 ; & Aquatimers 3767 v 3769?

Great post Matteo!

Hello guys
Many thanks for your replies.
As per the last part of the debate, I personally agree with the 50/50% value between the movement and the other components of the watch.

Btw, Michael, I remeber one brilliant article of yours where you well supported, against the most, this 50/50 ratio. If can I ask, what made you change your mind so radically? 80/20 is a totally different picture....

Cheers
Matteo

Great looking watch, but the similarity to the Yacht Club Port chrono is unbelievable striking....IMHO, I think 3904 is more similar to the PYC than to 3714....I think another feature on the dial would make The Difference....e.g., power reserve???

I really have been waiting since the first DaVinci that this 89xxx calibre would find its way the Portuguese line. I even bought the Yacht Club Chrono, which I sold one year later, as it was not reflecting the beauty of a Portuguese as it should. Having now seen this model that I really wanted, I am disappointed. The form of the case just does not reflect the elegance the 3712 and 3714 do. It looks clumsy to me, and I am really sorry to say that: The combination of the movement and the portuguese line would have been my dream watch, normally.

Also, I guess the fact that this model is announced now should help the company to reach their sales goals they would maybe not reach with the Ingenieur novelties, as the Ingenieur line is very particular. I find that most confusing.

I may have misstated myself. I don't have any way of knowing if it's 80/20, 75/25, 70/30 or even 50/50. I can't mathematically measure. But to me the threshold criteria for any watch's value is its movement. It is the first and defining thing I consider. To me it is the reason to buy a mechanical watch, but after it passes that test I consider other factors, like price, intended use and of course design. Sometimes other factors too, like historical value.

I know of no way of weighing subjective elements with mathematical precision. But with this movement, whatever the ratio this new 3904 wins.

Hello Michael
thanks for your prompt reply and I fully see your point.
Anyway, here I just report for reference an abstract from your words posted on the web back in 1998 in reply to one of my favorite article called "When a 7750 ain't a 7750 any longer":

"What you've written is a VIP (very important post) and one to which I concur fully. Interestingly, though, the issue transcends that of the movement of a watch and goes to the whole issue as to "what" "makes" a watch. Not only has there been an unfair tendency to equate watches with the same "base" movements, but there seldom is any differentiating relative to the other components in a watch. I'm specifically referring to such components as cases and dials. It seems to me that many people look at a watch in terms of its movement and its style and ignore how it’s made. I'm not sure what the relative percentages are, or even if this should be quantified, but I'm not sure that 50% of a watch is its movement. [...] But the point is that an IWC "7750" is not really a 7750 --not only because of the movement but also because of the whole watch. It may be more difficult to evaluate, or at least quantify, those other features, but they are clearly there."

Please, do not misunderstand me, I am not recalling it to dispute your recent statements, but just because those couple of articles really influenced my "horologic mind". I truly respect your view and I believe that anyone has the right to revise/change his own view through the years, anytime.
I was a "just-movement" guy, and sometimes I'm still leaning towards that direction, but I have to admit that those your words which I reported above, really made and still make absolute sense to me. That's why I believe the 3714 is and will be forever an icon, even with an ETA-based movement. And while I think the 3904 is a beautiful watch with an awesome caliber, I don’t think it will ever become the milestone the 3714 proved to be. This is just a personal feeling, of course.

Cheers
Matteo

Well, to add to the debate I'll share this snapshot:

To me, the new 3904 is more elegant, which is not better --just different.

On the movement issue, IWC dd not have an in-house chrono in 1998. It didn't have a column wheel then, nor a free-sprung balance. Nor more than conventional winding. I guess I've changed my mind as watchmaking at IWC became more sophisticated. Perhaps so did I.

I like the new 3904 a lot. Two things I wish IWC had taken away from the concept though:
1. The date functionality. This would have made the dial even more elegant, and also, it would have differentiated the watch further from the Yacht Club chrono.
2. About 2-3 K€ form the MSRP. The current MSRP is about twice the price of a 3714. I understand the in-house movement comes with a price, but still...

add few more:

Guys
many thanks! Brilliant posts and awesome pictures! I have to admit that these "side-by-side" shots really challange my first statement!

Anyway, thanks for such an interesting debate!

cheers
Matteo

Indeed, great side-by-side comparison pictures. Both watches are great looking, I guess both watches have their rightful place on the market. Some watches must not have a date, as it looks misplaced and lost. The 3714 is such a watch. That IWC managed to make an almost look-alike where the date looks just natural is a great achievement to me. The magnificent, visible movement is a bonus too. It is difficult to describe, to me the new 3904 looks a bit more mature. I almost reached the point where I thought that I wouldn't buy a new watch anymore, now I am not so sure...

Kind regards,
Paul