Portuguese Jubilee 5441 pricetag in 1993.

I understand that the steel Jubilee had a retail price of usd 8.500,- but to understand how much it was in 1993 I'm wondering what a steel Rolex Submariner and a gold Patek Calatrava sold for at the same time ( examples that are easy to relate to).
anybody with insights ?

This is off the top of my head, without checking catalogs. But I recall that a Submariner around 1993 sold for about 3500-4000 USD and a Patek Calatrava (say a ref 3998 in yellow gold, being 35mm) sold for about 7000-7500 USD.

Shows how long I've been around. ;)

It's pretty much what I had in mind. It must have been a bold proposition in 1993 with a manualwound steel watch on strap with no complication retailing for even more than a gold Patek ( gold prices were much lower then but still...)

If that is true, the Jubilee would still have been worth it. It is, to me anyway, the classiest time-only. I honestly prefer the RG Jubilee over any Calatrava, or Breguet Classique, I've seen.
Someday I will add that to my Pisa and be a very happy person, indeed.

I am sorry but in my honest opinion it is comparing apples with oranges.
The price of a Portugieser Jubilée in 1993 and now 20 years later, is only for a part determined by the fact that it is an IWC watch. The saga about the vintage ref. 325 Portugieser, the fact that it was a limited edition and that it has been dedicated to the 125 years jubileum of the factory, made it a highly sought after collectors watch. And the price of such watch has no rational but far more an emotional background.
Kind regards,
Adrian.
(alwaysiwc).

That's all true, Adrian. My point is that, throwing aside cost, The Jubilee is a more elegant watch, in that category. Of course, that is my opinion and I am sure especially, Patek fans would think I'm nuts.

I think one needs to keep in mind that there was a huge shift between 1993 and today in styles: a 42mm watch then was considered huge, and a 35mm watch considered standard. Today, 35mm is considered small for many, and demand has gone down for that accordingly. 42mm is considered by many now to be standard.

For this recent many relatively contemporary 35mm watches haven't increased or maintained their prices, while larger watches have seen demand soar.

It's a great watch, but the statement highly sought after collectors watch is simply not true. There are about a dozen 5441's (SS/RG/PT) for sale at the moment with almost nothing happening.

You are right, and I wonder why. One site even dropped the price of steel Jubilee recently and it still hasn't sold. Perhaps there aren't enough IWC aficionados in the world.
I also wonder whether IWC has any interest in supporting the prices of its older watches, such as Patek has done, to the detriment of many less-than-rich collectors. Getting a vintage IWC watch is still a reality for many people while Patek is for the mega-rich.

The site that dropped the price will probably not sell it because the box and papers seem to be missing...

It is indeed quite strange. Vintage Rolex, maybe even Panerai had larger production numbers and are selling for far more then vintage IWC's. The big pilot and Uhr Portugiese are just a half of what a modest vintage Rolex does.

I'm not sure I concur with some of this pricing discussion.

Great vintage Rolex can be found for 6000-9000 USD (including Submariners) and no IWC Portuguese Jubilee or Big Pilot sells near that. It's only the Daytonas and the rarer models (vintage Milgauss) that sell near that. A decent Steve McQueen Explorer can be found for less than Jubilees. Few Rolex models sell for more than 5251 Portofinos.

325 Portuguese often sell for more except than very expensive Rolex. In fact, I find that many vintage IWCs today are very costly. An 812 or 1812 Aquatimer or an 866 Ingenieur --all in steel, of course-- sell for more than 90% or more of all vintage gold Vacherons except chronos, and even more than many gold Pateks. I just bought a vintage gold "Cioccolatone" Patek from the early 1950s for less than most steel 666 Ingenieurs (let alone 866s) sell for.

I can pick out plenty of examples, including ones which are exceptions, of most brands and most price points. But I believe that IWC vintage watches today are quite expensive. Possibly worth it, but still many of the most collectible models are very costly.

This is a very interesting discussion especially as we don't often discuss (at least in my observation) other brands in a comparative sense and it is about vintage which is my favourite kind of IWC (as well as some other brands as well).

I think Michael's analysis is correct about IWC (vintage) being (becoming) expensive. At least from when I started collecting just 8 or so years ago.

I don't know a lot about Rolexes, new or vintage. Once in a while I see one on a vintage site but I've never paid much attention to them.
Patek, on the other hand, is pretty much in your face if you look at older watches sites, or auctions. It seems to me they are much more costly than IWCs, or any other brand for that matter.
But the point I was ineptly making earlier was that Patek (in my opinion) created the premium prices for its vintage watches by buying up so many old ones for its museum, over many years, driving up the prices at auctions to the point where they have gone through the roof. Hayek attempted to do the same for Breguet once he bought the brand. Vacheron had done similarly. I don't think IWC has done this and therefore I believe its vintage watches are more reasonably priced.
I am aware that a ref. 325 is not cheap; nor is a Jubilee. But both are extremely rare watches, and again, limited edition (or small-run) Pateks go for much more. There are only 675-699 ref. 325s. There are only 1750 Jubilees. If IWC bought some of them for its museum, say at auction, the prices would start to jump. Without IWC competing for the scarce models, one less (and wealthy) player is around to set market price.
Just my humble take on it.

I might add that Rolex and Patek collectors are way more OCD than IWC collectors. Thank goodness for that. I don't know much about the Patek world, but when I browse auction catalogs, there is tremendous differentiation even within one model. However, vintage and neo-vintage Rolex collectors take the cake for fussiness over arcane details. They even have their own language! And there are a world of fakes and frankensteins that a collector has to deal with.

As an IWC collector, I thank heaven, that we haven't resorted to that level of minutiae.

As a side note, I remember Richard Paige, who was an IWC dealer in Northern California, tell MF and Kurt Klaus at a gathering in 2000, that he couldn't give the Jubilees away, even at substantial discounts, when they were introduced in 1993-94. So if you consider you could have bought a 5441 in steel for say $5000 or less, back in the day, then they've appreciated more than 150%. Fair return, I'd say.