Who really designed the Golf & Polo Club models?

Greetings,

The subject line of the post is a question without, at least to me, an answer. if anyone has clear and convincing documentation, I would be interested.

In the new issue of WATCH magazine, there's an article about the Yacht, Golf and Polo Club models, written by a Peter Frey and called "Join the Club". In it, there's at least one small inaccuracy --it states that the "SL collection" includes one model without the name "Club" --the Ingenieur SL. But as a search of the archives will show there were several "SL" models without the name "Club", there's even some watches have DaVinci SL" on the dial.

But that is merely a quibble. However, more importantly the article says, in referring to Gerald Genta,[i] "In 1974/1975, apart from the Ingenieur SL, he designed both the Golf Club and the Polo Club for IWC".

Now --my question is simply: is this true? And, if so, what is the evidence?

I ask because I've heard these rumors before, and to my thinking they've been, absent some reasonable substantiation, urban myths. This one journalist may be right, although for a number of reasons I have my doubts. But if any one has any source or further information here, I'd be interested. And based on the "SL" inaccuracy --minor in itself-- I wonder if there may be a issue here with knowledge of historical facts. Facts that admittedly are obscure but important to some collectors.

Does anyone have any specifics?

Thanks in advance,
Michael
P.S. I've also heard Genta attributed as the designer of the Yacht Club and also the Yacht Club II. Based on design, I think the former is possible, although unsubstantiated, but definitely not the latter. The article makes no claim regarding the designer of these latter two models.

I am honestly surprised

I guess the answer may come from some die hard collectors, maybe 60 years old or a bit more. My surprise (no unpleasantness intended) is that the question comes from you, Michael, as I presume that your first source of information would be IWC self. I remember a question a few years ago, here or at the German forum, about the meaning of SL, nobody seemed to know for sure. As the watches you mention are about 35 years old, one would presume that either older employees like Kurt Klaus would know the answers, or that some documentation should be at IWC, like, who was head of the design department at the time, who OK'ed the different designs: aren't those decisions put down in minutes of meetings? Ah, they may have been thrown away after a few years. I remember a presentation about one and a half year ago, of a lady who (my inaccurate wording) is responsible for the preservation of IWC history, and the museum: shouldn't she have to know this, or know where to look? Maybe it is a stupid question, but why is this kind of information not available at IWC? IWC is not that big, nor were there hundreds of different watches a year: where do I go wrong?

Kind regards,
Paul, wearing steel VC Portuguese: I wonder (and asked that question a few months ago) who was responsible for the design of this super watch

I find it strange there isn't any documentation in

the company archives. Secondly that someone like Herr King wouldn't have at least an idea.

Interesting MF.
--
Cheers from Isobars.

me, too, but it was a different era....

...there were no watch collectors in the mid-1970s, and the industry was in chaos. Few records were maintained, and phenomena like "designers" didn't really exist --although of course people designed watches.

Back in 2001, when I started with IWC, I asked to meet the designer. He was a guy with a small firm in Schaffhausen who worked part-time, and by himself, for IWC. A nice guy, but not even close to the six person internal design department today at the factory. And that was only 8-1/2 years ago. I can only imagine what it was like 35 years ago.

I know, there are 2 or 3 people from that era, but I'm not sure they were involved with contractual arrangements with a few then-unknown independent contractors that resulted in hundreds of watches --often less than 1000.

Still, I'm surprised too. That's why I asked --and what I'd like is clear and convincing documentation.

Regards,
Michael

Hannes Pantli might now something

At a collectors meeting some years ago, I think it was at the SIHH, I remember one collector asked a question regarding the Yach Club II and his answer was something like "I would not like to talk about that watch and honestly I wish we never made that model. Any other questions?".

Sounds like Ivan was quoting this paragraph..

....from some kind of semi-official literature..

Posted by iwcforme on 04.04.2008 at 07:41:33

Steel Line - Found these comments...

in the Ingenieur write up so Dirk perhaps you are "historically" correct
""In the mid-1970s IWC decided to redesign the Ingenieur to give it a more "fashion forward" look. With the new model, IWC tried to emulate the concept of one of its rivals. A few years earlier, Audemars-Piguet had scored a major success with a luxury steel sport watch, the "Royal Oak," designed by Gerald Genta. Soon thereafter IWC hired Genta (who also designed the steel Patek Philippe Nautilus) to design a newly conceived Ingenieur, along with two new watches, the Golf Club and Polo Club. These were all included it what IWC called its Collection SL. IWC's "SL catalog" from 1976/77 indicates that the SL designation originally meant "Steel Line" - a further indication that the new collection was intended to evoke the success of the Royal Oak as a luxury watch in steel. However, with the subsequent inclusion of non-steel watches in the SL line, along with the passage of time, the SL designation is now more often viewed as meaning "Sports Line.""

A viewer might be wise to remember that even if Schaffhausen declare the G/P-club designs down to Gerald they could change thier mind akin to the happenings around the SL branding for steel watches.....and some bi-metals if we can sell 'em...and a few on straps if you must.

Only my very humble ("STEADY") opinion but i feel that maybe a couple of other pieces devoid of model names within this SL time frame were GG concepts...i would'nt wager monies on it mind cause the original sketching may well be on a napkin somewhere.

Pardon me, i've just realised the txt..

....was taken from Google and not from Schaffhausen.

confirming my point...

..I'm looking for any probative evidence, and not Internet statements nor even anecodotal recollections. This is not to dismiss what others might have claimed, but only that I suspect the WATCH article's author likewise researched by Google --and I'm wondering if we have developed a myth.

Regards,
Micvhael

confirming my point...

The same can be said (documented evidence) for any models from any company that GG designed for, he's kept stum and so have all the companies involved. His pal who is heavilly involved in the watch industry spoke openly of the eight models he designed for Omega, the c-type constellation and the UG shadow range were just prior to the genesis of the YC.....which means nothing in itself ...other than there was a fella jumping around the mid-60's convincing watch companies that his design was the way forward.

Though the SL designation was rather messed-up..someone came up with the design for the Clubs and when they came up with the design for the clubs GG was around about Schaffhausens thoughts....it's safe to say thats more than an opinion.

From known models that can be put down to him...

...it's rather obvious that he was'nt the least bit kinky for a traditional round case and like to mess with bezels (inner or outer did'nt really matter).
[](s111.photobucket.com/albums/n126/oneredtrim/?action=view&current=DSC03983.jpg)

some info from my stored old files ...

HI Michael & all,

In a post dated February 23, 1998, Hans Zbinden, a well known watch enthusiast to many, posted the following information on another watch forum in response to someone's question " I wonder what Genta designed besides his two best known works - the IWC Ingenieur and the AP Royal Oak.":

reply from Hans:
[i]Some time ago, Uhren Magazin asked a number of watch-company presidents to list their five favorite watch designs. Apparently, GG is not a modest type, all he named were designs of his own: the Royal Oak, the Ingenieur (SL), the PP Nautilus, the GG Grande Sonnerie and the Omega Seamaster.[i]

This statement seems to be credible information from Gerald Genta himself.

Regards,
Jack Freedman

that's what I head heard previously ...

...and the only models he has claimed. I also think it would be unusual to have a confidential agreement in place between a company and a designer, regarding some models, particularly obscure ones, but not others.

I've no knowledge that model is by Genta

....and there are several like it, by IWC and others I believe. If there is a specific foundation for attributon here I'd be interested in more information.

Thank you.

I've no knowledge that model is by Genta

I would'nt expect you to have any knowledge about the model designer MF...least not if you or anybody within Schaffhausen know who designed more named models. All that really proves is not a lot.

There are always two sides to a story, students of horology should remember this. Whilst certain folk feel that Gerald was all but an outsourced contractor who in the scheme of things played a very bit part....he was nevertheless the person who provided the design blue-print for a large heavy case....one which is still being slaughtered today by more than 3 big players.

some info from my stored old files ...

Him saying simply Seamaster is a touch mis-leading Jack, the 8 models he had anything to do with were all in the Seamaster model line.

I searched the WWW

for quite some time and found many references even from current Forum Members of GG designed SL models (like Polo, Golf, Yaght Club and Ingenieur) for IWC, but just references and not solid proof.

Argiris

I wonder how....

....happy Gerald was having somebody elses designs teamed with his own (Clubs). I'd imagine after the Oak and the Nautilus he was on a bit of a roll, strange carry on that.

I personally have no convincing documentation

but there are certainly plenty of discussions within this forum that have "added fuel to the fire " of this Fact or Myth. My first "knowledge" and I must say I took it as informed knowledge is added in the link below.

I have spent a day in the IWC Archive a couple of months ago - actually I was the first non IWC employee to spend time in the new archive - and one day my work will be shared in full....but due to copyright agreements on data and knowledge I have at hand I cannot comment fully yet.

Actually, come to think of it there is no DOCUMENTATION (convincing or otherwise) that I am aware of that Gerald Genta was the designer of the Jumbo Ingenieur. Perhaps there is documented evidence available to the public ?

Throughout the internet it is simple to find links (not convincing documentation) of Genta's contribution to the Golf and Polo Club models and this claimed connection has also appeared in a book....."Die Noblen Aus Der Schweiz" by J Michael Mehltretter.

IWC's WATCH International 2007, December Issue also clearly states the link of Genta and the Polo Club.

I look forward to seeing the special exhibition of the Club Family (already open at the IWC museum - earlier than advertised in the next WATCH magazine) - and perhaps, if we are lucky, there are some documents that will help with this fact or myth.

Perhaps someone needs to ask whether Peter Frey is aware of any convincing documentation ? I spoke to him for a few moments on the telephone and this did not come up in the discussion....but he had access to all my "data" on the Club family which includes the forum perception on the links of Genta and the Clubs.

Perhaps I know where this small inaccuracy comes from in the "SL" part......of the article but since I havent seen the final printed version of the article I wait to comment...... but the version I seen did NOT attempt to imply that the ONLY SL versions were the Ingenieur, Polo and Golf Club models.

Andrew

MF's earlier post from 2002