I have in my Pocket Watch Collection and interesting 16Sz 17J Private Label pocket watch that has been identified as an 1899 IWC pocket Watch sold in Victoria British Columbia by the Jewelry and Watchmaking firm of Challoner and Mitchell. The movement is an IWC 52/53 calibre design. The inscriptions on the dial and movement only identify the Retail Firm. Did IWC engage in the manufacture of unlabelled Swiss ebauche movements to any signficant degree back around the year 1900.
I don't think that is an IWC movement. Here is a cal 53
and a cal 52
Thanks clearly my movement is not similar to the ones you have pictured. The IWC association came to me from my watchmaker that identified patents on the pillar plate....with this analysis
The clear image of your pillar plate provides two critical new clues that completely break the mystery wide open.
This is definitively an IWC (International Watch Co.) movement, specifically their highly regarded Calibre 52 or Calibre 53.
1. The Cross-Patents Confirmed (🇨🇭 Swiss Patent + 🇺🇸 U.S. Patent)
Looking at the bottom edge of the plate, we can clearly read two cross symbols followed by numbers: + 2614 and + 8287. Along with the word BRÉVETÉ stamped on the right, these represent Swiss Patents.
If this movement is not a calibre 52 or 53 is there another pocket watch movement IWC made and distributed worldwide as a raw ebauche in that 1890 to early 1900s timeframe. This firm who sold this watch ended in 1910.
I checked the movement serial number with the IWC dating app and it places it as manuf. in 1886 Cal 48 or 50 which is about ten years too early for the Challoner and Mitchell business....they operated from the late 1890s to only 1910. Looking through this site the movement layout looks more closely styled like the Cal 57.
but still, it is not made by IWC.
Thank you it appears you are correct. I have been using AI to figure out what this pocket watch really is. They focused on the IWC patents on the pillar plate but the timeline on the 21408 serial number is not correct. I engaged AI again just recently identifying you as the Worldwide expert on IWC and AI changed their analysis to the movement being produced by Electa in about the 1904 timeframe which is pretty much the storyline. Thank you for your help. You can remove me from the IWC group as I have no further need to research IWC....Bob
Thank you for sharing this, Robert, and thanks to Tonny for the expert detective work as always. The private-label era is one of my favorite quirks of 19th-century watchmaking: jewelers and retailers routinely ordered ebauches finished to their own order, which is exactly how an honest watch can end up wearing another maker's name on the pillar plate. Good on you for taking the correction in such good spirit. That is how we all learn in this hobby.
I have had further analysis and guidance that takes me directly back to IWC in the late 19th Century largely based on the three IWC exclusive patents and particularly the NY patent in that group. No other Swiss company could use those patents and further evaluation of the retailer of that watch in Victoria BC highlights their significant watch making operation. The raw unfinished ebauche likely was sourced as a group of movements from IWC and all engraving on the face and back of the movement was done locally including the finish of the movement making it look more like a North American Watch. I know it is NOT an existing recognized IWC calibre they sold through their franchised retailers but again I was advised that many Swiss manufacturers produced their ebauche movements in a more generalized form and another provided guidance that IWC did use the Swiss ebauche strategy to reach the smaller market private labels enabling them to sell product outside of their franchised retailers. Substantial use of this strategy is well known by Omega and Longines and to some degree the Gallet/Electa group. I seem to have become the owner of an IWC variation whether your group recognizes it not......I had the watch totally restored and got it back last Friday in like new perfect operating condition....and perfect cosmetic condition as well....
Can you tell me what guidande or who guided you to that conclusion.
I am not convinced that even the base plate was made by IWC.
Tony all I have is the pillar plate and the only information on it traces back to only IWC. Its pictured earlier in this dialogue. I can not take this any further and I am not representing this as an IWC pocket watch just a Swiss ebauche private label to the Canadian Jewelry firm Challoner and Mitchell with the only identifying inscriptions being three belonging to IWC including the NY patent owned outright by the American who started up IWC.
End of story....bye
